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NEW MH17 SENSATION: German experts point finger at Ukrainian air-force jets.


BY JOHN WARD

ukrainejetsSurface to air missile attack ruled out as calibre of cockpit bullet holes puts Ukraine pilots in the frame for MH17 murders

This is what a German pilot-cum-air technology expert Peter Haisenko has just published on the subject of the MH17 disaster (my emphases):

‘The misfortune of the Malaysian MH 017 is known to all. The flight
recorder is in England and is being evaluated. What can come of this?
May be more than you want to accept….if you look at the image of
Cockpit-Fragments, this picture is certainly shocking.
Entry And Exit holes from bullets in the area of the Cockpit. This is not speculation, but analysis of clear facts: the cockpit
shows clear evidence of bullet holes. You can see the entry holes and
some exit points. The edges of the bullet holes are bent inwards,
these are much smaller and round in shape. A 30mm calibre. The exit
holes are less well formed and the edges are torn outwards.
Furthermore it is visible that the exit holes have torn the double
aluminium skin and bent them outwards. That is to say, splinters from
inside the cockpit blew through the outside of the cabin. The open
rivets have also been bent outwards….There is only one conclusion one can make, and that is that this: the
aircraft was not hit by a missile. The damage to the aircraft is
exclusively in the cockpit area….

Armour-Piercing Ammunition. Russia has published radar data that a
Ukranian SU 25 was close to MH 017. this corresponds with Spanish air
traffic control that two Ukranian fighter aircraft were in direct
contact with MH 017. Examine the weaponry of the SU 25: it is fitted
out with a 30mm cannon Type GSch-302 /AO-17A, with 250 rounds of
splintering exploding bullets on a belt – shrapnel rounds. The cockpit
of MH 017 was hit from TWO sides, as there are entry and exit holes on
the same side….’
Very compelling stuff, is it not?

Now read this (also German) article by defence expert Bernd Biederman, who offers equally sound reasons why the
shooting down could NOT have been from a surface to air missile:

‘ the shooting down of the Malaysian
Boeing on July 17 in the Eastern Ukraine “could not have been hit by a
surface to air defense missile” .

This is the assessment of retired Colonel Bernd Biedermann in an
article for the daily newspaper published in Berlin “new Germany”
(Thursday edition). Had splinters from a surface to air missile hit
the plane, it would have immediately caught fire, argues the NVA
anti-aircraft missile specialist. His reasoning is because of the
“enormous frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
the fuselage. A single splinter contains the same kinetic energy as a
40-ton freight car hitting the buffers at 60 kilometers per hour.” In
the case of the Malaysian Boeing, scattered fires had broken out after
the impact with the ground, because hot debris from the aircraft had
come in contact with combustible materials.

Biedermann is familiar with Soviet and Russian air defense technology,
he led units in the duty officer system in East Germany and taught at
the Military Academy in the field of anti-aircraft missile troops.’

Articles are beginning to appear across the Web to the effect that Angela Merkel is disturbed by (and growing tired of) the incessant US propaganda being emitted in favour of its energy agenda….and so we must perhaps in turn view these articles in the light of her alleged new agenda concerning the creation of an alternative bloc to that of America. (More on this here in the near future).

But spin or not, these analyses make sense. The US State Dept has now shifted its position from ‘Russian atrocity’ to ‘tragic accident’. The above opinions suggest that neither are true: they suggest strongly that the Ukrainian air force took out MH17.

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  • Al Martinez

    Please do not let facts interfere with a great fairy tale.

    • Ales Ogrinc

      book writers will do anything to get up there book sales. They are so called experts on this areas :)

  • HoustonReal

    This article uses a picture of an SU-27, but the German “experts” claim Ukrainian SU-25s shot down MH17. One large problem, the SU-25 Frogfoot is not a fighter, but an attack aircraft analogous to the USAF A-10. It has a maximum service ceiling of 23,000 feet when unloaded, and around 16,000 with full weapons. MH17 was cruising at 33K feet, 10K feet (almost 2 miles) higher than the SU-25 can reach.

    It is also too slow to effectively intercept a Boeing 777, with a maximum airspeed of only 31 mph above the airliner’s cruising speed. What kind of aviation “expert” can ignore the inability of an SU-25 to intercept an airliner at cruising altitude and speed?

    • jgee

      Unless the plane wasnt at its maximum altitude. Which we would know, except that Kiev refuses to release any data.

      • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

        Flight follow websites show MH17 was flying at 33,000 ft at 490 knots just prior to be shot down. Also, there have been no reports to suggest it had descended from that altitude before disappearing from radar screens.

        Let’s remember that the rebel leader tweeted that they had just shot down an AN-26 in the same area & time as when MH17 crashed. That’s pretty convincing evidence by itself.

        • Lime Lite

          The rebel leader didn’t tweet – it wasn’t him. I would think by now people would take “social media” with a huge pinch of salt.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            So who sent out that report that the rebels had just shot a plane down?

          • african4

            Obviously someone that would want you to think that it was the rebel leader.

          • cia

            who plan to shoot mh17. to make it looks like freedom fighters got capabilities to do that. and they (cia) very greedy, didnot supply fuel till home, only till ukraine

          • srmmedia

            do you know that I can create multiple social media accounts and pretend to be you and tweet and post till the cows come home? Having a social media account is not like having a passport , anybody can claim to be anybody and make any claims they want. It’s all hearsay and speculation. Where is the proof the evidence from the USA? Where is it? Why is nobody asking to see it? Why are the refusing to release it ? These are the questions you should be asking

        • Semper Fortis

          tweet? that is IDIOT proof.?

          how hard is it to assume an identity and tweet.

        • cia

          freedom fighter leader doesnot have any tweet etc

        • 2015

          Not admissible in court. Fairly weak, since the tweets from the Spanish air traffic controller (industry confirmed) have been censored out of existence.

          Also websites have all been tampered, including ones showing departure time.

          Early photos from crash (ones not tampered with) and Russian data is all we have to go on.

        • Someone

          Actually not quite true.
          It did descent slightly from aprox 33k to aprox 32k, after instructions from flight control.

          Other then that we have no proof untill kiev releases the flightdata they have ran off with.

      • tionico

        how woule Kiev have information? The Flight Data Recorder is in England. The aircraft does not answer to or inform Kiev. Kiev do not release data because they do not HAVE data.

        • cia

          kiev has recordings from tower. air control to flight. to releise it=sign death to yourself (us)

    • Brett Simcock

      Interesting that an SU-27 would have no problem, however…

      • HoustonReal

        Except not even these “experts” are asserting that there were SU–27s in the area. Ukraine has Mig-29s and SU-27s, but neither type was in the area.

      • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

        But, why have the Russians consistently said SU-25 was tracking MH17?

    • Guest

      You are unfortunately an incredibly stupid idiot. I don’t buy any conspiracy theory garbage so I will just wait until the findings are reported and also take the information released by the Russian MOD as highly credible until shown otherwise.

      You are proof that any clown can go on the internet type in SU-25 and then post nonsense on the internet. In reality the spec given,just to satisfy non experts , regarding things like speed and cruising altitude- are a load of garbage.

      That plane is structurally designed to be able to go way about that “service ceiling” you stupidly refer to…as high as 11000m in certain conditions. The only reason for this stat of 7000m stated on website is due to impact on the engine….this can still be fine flying way above 7000m provided it does this for a brief period of time and not a cruising altitude.

      That speed is easily able to intercept the 777 also.

      • HoustonReal

        You are quick to call someone an idiot while hiding behind an anonymous “guest” persona. Actually, unless the sole purpose of the SU-25s that day was to shoot down MH-17, they would never be flown clean. The Frogfoot had problems with flying in Afghanistan and is not a high-altitude aircraft.

        Only someone who knows very little about military aviation would state that an SU-25 would ever be sent to intercept a 777. The plane lacks afterburners, and it’s only slight speed advantage would mean any intercept mission would take too long and have impossibly low odds of success. There is a reason air superiority fighters have supersonic capabilities for high closure speed and excess maneuvering energy. Jeez, all you need is a little experience with a combat flight sim, but you obviously don’t even have that.

        • Seb

          Actually, the service ceiling of a Su-25T (airtight cabin) is 33,000ft (10,000m) with full load. Service ceiling is the ceiling where aircraft can presume static horizontal fight. Su-25Ts DYNAMIC ceiling is approximately 50,000ft (15,000m).

          Su-25T with full tanks and full combat load weight 16,800kg – tw ratio = 0,49
          Su-25T with full tanks and 2xR-60 weight 12,500kg = t/w ratio = 0,66

          F-104 Starfighter was able to have a service ceiling of 50,000ft (15,000m) at combat load having TWICE smaller t/w ratio and higher wing load.

          But most of all, R-60 can attack aircraft at 10km (30,000ft) PLUS to attitude of attacking aircraft.

          Also, an Su-25T attacking a Boeing 777 at its 10,500m with R-60 could be WAY below it. It could reach it with R-60 even from 4,000-5,000m?.

          • HoustonReal

            Why do I bother? The SU-25T/SU-39 was produced in very small numbers, none going to Ukraine. All the SU-25s possessed by Ukraine have unpressurized cockpits, limiting them to uunder 23000 feet.

            The above article states these “experts” proposing damage from an SU-25’s 30mm canon, NOT an R-60 a2a missle. And you don’t send a subsonic, ground attack aircraft to shoot down a 777 cruising at FL33, when you have SU-27s and Mig-29s available.

          • xzuma

            Ever heard of oxygen masks? What do you think they are for?

      • guest

        All warfare is based on deception.

    • Guest

      I don’t know why you are concentrating on this SU-25 or SU-27 thing. It does not matter!! Remember the press conference Russia said “probably” so I give a shit what military fighter it was.
      The FACT is that it is almost impossible that a ground air missile hit the plane and that there are entry and exit holes in the cockpit of the MH17.
      So stay to the facts and don’t loose in site discussions.
      If this is confirmed all the discussion from the west world is a lie!
      And with the next step we can ask the question what plane type can create wholes like this.

      • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

        It’s hard for surface to air missiles to hit an aircraft??? Then why do the Russians have so many batteries of them? Why did they sell many of them over the years to Cuba, N Korea, Libya, China, Vietnam, Iran, etc? We lost a U-2 over Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. We lost many fighter & bombers to SA-6 SAM sites during Vietnam. Israel has lost fighter jets to SAMs during their several wars. Libya shot down a Chad bomber back in 1987 using an SA-6 too. Saddam’s Iraq Army tried to shoot down US & Allied fighters during Operation Desert Storm, Northern Watch * Southern Watch. The Serbs shot down Capt Scott Grady in an F-16 and they got another one during the Kosovo conflict. I could site many other shoot downs.

        So, shooting an unarmed, unaware civil airliner with a big shiny radar return would not be overly difficult for a much newer system like the BUK that’s involved in this criminal act by the rebels.

        • TheTruth

          You distract from the topic. I don’t ask whom to blame.

          Let’s face the facts before judging. So fact number
          1. Photo of the peace of the cockpit shows entry and exit holes
          2. The plane didn’t burn when it felled down (video evidence)
          3. Plane had plenty of fuel on board at the time of the crash and a ground to air rocket would have inflamed the plane in the air
          5. The peaces of the plane behind the cockpit had no explosion damages except for a part of the wing surface.

          I don’t ask the question who is responsible. I just ask the question how do these facts match the official version. So don’t distract in site discussions.

          If you accept these facts we can discuss further on the question how is this possible and maybe who can do this.

          But by accepting these facts you have to admit that the official western version is a lie. As one BUK cannot create entry and exist holes!

          And if you don’t accept these facts you don’t accept reality.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            I was replying to “almost impossible that a ground air missile hit the plane” comment and I never said who I thought was to blame. My comments are relevant to this conversation, even if they disagree with you.

            The 777 only has fuel tanks in the wings and the wing box area of the fuselage. There is no fuel tanks in the area in front of the wings nor behind them. This also explains fairly well why the wreckage only burned at one location where the main landing gear are easily visible in the debris along with both engines.

            How does a missile start a fire in flight if the explosives detonate some 50-100 feet away from the target? The primary shrapnel is made up of steel balls some 10 mm in size and they would have nothing flammable in them.

            Air temperature at 33,000 ft is around -50 Fahrenheit, then add in the jets speed of 490 knots/560 MPH and it would be pretty hard for any flammable missile material to catch the fuel vapors on fire.

          • Guest

            The cockpit does not look at all as it would have been hit by a missile in 50 – 100 feet distance. You have to understand that the cockpit is even reinforced as it is exposed to particular stress.
            As the expert stated frictional heat that the splinters generate on penetrating
            the fuselage immediately causes fire.

            I’ll have a high resolution image of the cockpit with 8500×5700 resolution. Very detailed!! But this site does not allow links in comments as it looks like.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            That’s an awful lot of pitting & darkening to what was a white paint job. To me it looks like residue from the missiles warhead. On several of those holes, they seem to be entry holes coming in from just off of the nose. Since their are two layers of sheetmetal, I believe that angled hit would push up on the far side of the impact area. It will be interesting to see what the crash investigation report says.

          • Ales Ogrinc

            What ever the crash inverstigation report will say, people will allways point a finger that it was done by CIA or whoever. That are kinda people sleeping with aluminium foil on there head to, lol
            That are people that achive nothing in there life and blame anybody else for there mistakes and have nothing better to do or simply like this “expert” to boost his book sales with lies and so on with nothing behind the story.

          • Ales Ogrinc

            wrong, the speed passenger plane has and how bullets travel the damage infront is made from explosion and shrapnel hits. Bullets would make clean hits not this.

          • BT

            How in the hell would a shrapnel make ENTRY holes?! You suggest that after explosion a shrapnel can fly away from a plane then turn around and make an entry hole? Well that’s smart. And in this picture ENTRY holes are obvious!

          • Ales Ogrinc

            the surface to air missile doesnt explode just like that hat your used to see in movies! It explodes before it this a plane and with that the missile itself has shrapnels that are done exactly for this.

          • Ales Ogrinc

            what are you talking about actually??? missile explodes about 20m from the plane and spreading the shrapnels to the target to rip it apart. Alot of weapons are done like that, even mines. BUK missile is made to destroy alot of things and while it travels at speed above beeing able to hit exactly the target it is done so it explodes near the targed so it hits it with sharpnels. Again, you need to check how this kinda missiles work as they DONT hit the target directly!

          • Semper Fortis

            paid shill.

            you are definitely a paid shill.

            I know your tactics..

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            I’m not paid to shill for anyone.

            What is wrong with my facts or opinions?

          • Semper Fortis

            your ‘blame russia’ banter.

            And straw man arguments against anything that isnt.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            Most of my posting deals with factual data. I only mad a couple of comments that implicate the rebels with nothing said about Russian involvement. So, how did you get “blame Russia” out of that?

          • SnakeArbusto

            ?

            “with nothing said about Russian involvement.”
            Come on. “the BUK that’s involved”

          • Idiotland

            You’re entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            So, which fact is wrong?

          • David Murphy

            I would say you are the shill, Eric ohnson is posting facts that you refuse to answer exceot with crass insults. Your’s is typical of the Russina propgandists or the conspiracy theorists.

          • SnakeArbusto

            “Russina propgandists” and “conspiracy theorists” are both pretty crass. Even more crass than “shill,” some would say…

          • EAGLES

            You and Eric are both shills :)

          • cia

            wrong. how other planes blow and burn at this hight?

          • srmmedia

            you ever heard of friction?

          • SnakeArbusto

            ” I never said who I thought was to blame. My comments are relevant to this conversation,” ? You_ did_ say this:

            *would not be overly difficult for a much newer system like *the BUK that’s involved in this criminal act by the rebels.*”

            That would seem to be saying that the “rebels” are to blamse…

          • http://www.Attilashrugs.wordpress.com/ Attilashrugs

            Since all conspiracies are equally valid based on the facts why are you sure the panel was not shot up by drunk Russian separatist militia? Maybe he wasn’t drunk nut acting on Moscow’s orders?
            As to your points 1,2,3 and 5 (NO #4?) a SAM hit at 30,000 feet would cause massive IMPLOSION, thus the exploding fireball might not occur. (IDK, I am no expert.) Is there enough data on the wreckage to make any determination?

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            I have mentioned that a large SAM missile exploding in front of MH17 fits what information we have at this point. Russian media reported on June 29 that these rebels had captured Ukrainian BUK. Add that rebel social media announcement just after the shoot down and there are several natural tie ins there.

            Airliners are pressurized at 8000 to 10,000 ft for passenger comfort. So it would be the opposite of an implosion as there would be a huge loss of pressure as it bled out thru these numerous holes and cracks in the fuselage.

            The wreckage will tell us a lot and that’s why so many folks wonder why the Russians carted away the cockpit area and other parts of the aircraft. We need to get the investigators out there in a safe environment so they can find the evidence to prove what really happened on that day.

          • David Murphy

            The photos of the plane prove nothing. We don’t know if it is the same plane, we don’t know when the holes were put there – maybe the groudn forces did it to obfuscate the issue.

        • african4

          Stick to the facts. Look at the bullet holes in the 777.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            How do you know they are bullet holes? If anything, there hole size seems to be in the 10 mm range and I don’t know of any aircraft that shoot that size bullet. The ones I know of are 20 to 25 mm with only the A-10 carrying a 30 mm gun. That basic fact rules out a fighter jet’s gun causing the damages.

          • whitja01

            Did you read the article? The German pilot clearly explains that they are bullet holes of 30 mm. And that the damage to the cockpit on the pilot’s side could not be caused by a missile. The larger holes are from the inside out.

          • Ales Ogrinc

            you have never seen a bullet or shrapnel holes in your life…you people are sooo crazy here…

        • tionico

          except evidence recovered from the downed craft is NOT supportive of the BUK missile system having been used. If it DID support that weapons system, the ONLY ones in the area were in the hands of the Ukrainian government forces, NOT the “russian backed” or leaning “rebel” forces. Whether it was a BUK or a Ukrainian Air Force craft, the Ukrainian government forces seem to be the guilty at this point. And guess WHO is backing and furthering the aims of that government’s military? Yup.. the good ol US of A.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            Russian media reported on June 29 that the rebels had captured BUK vehicles. That puts them in rebel hands over 2 weeks before the shoot down on Jul 17.

            Sadly, Obama has only provide some MREs for the Ukraine military, that is no real support at all. Real support would include satellite intelligence of rebel & troop locations, rifles, ammo, night vision goggles, etc.

          • sleat

            “Russian media reported on June 29 that the rebels had captured BUK vehicles.”

            Way too oversimplified. So, they captured an entire SAM site, plus its entire dozen or so crew and support hardware intact? I doubt that.

            A “BUK vehicle” alone doth not an effective and combat-ready BUK SAM site make!

            From the Ukrainian government website for the state-owned defence company “UKROBORONSERVICE” which services, maintains, enhances, and SELLS BUK missile systems to various third-parties:

            The BUK-M1 system includes:

            – Air defense guided missiles 9M38M1;

            – Command post 9S470M1;

            – Early warning and target designation radar unit 9S18M1 KUPOL-M1;

            – Self-propelled SAM launching system 9A310M1;

            – Launcher-loader module 9A39.

            You need at least a command vehicle, a launcher, some missiles, and a targetting radar vehicle (KUPOL radar vehicle). Plus you need a minimum of about a dozen trained guys, who are experienced working TOGETHER as an air-defense team to work the system. This includes radar operator, missile operator, vehicle operator/loader, driver(s), and support staff, plus a commander of some kind.

            Where would the rebels get an entire complete long-range SAM site, plus a complete integrated and trained crew for the same type (and version!) of SAM site? These are not footsoldier operated single-user IGLA MANPAD missiles we’re talking about, which, incidentally, ALL the other aircraft shootdown videos from Ukraine feature heavily.

            Without all of these, you CANNOT engage an airliner (which cannot really even be clearly visually detected at 10,000 meters altitude).

            Go ahead and google some interior photos of the KUPOL and BUK missile launcher control panels and tell me how untrained rebels would spitball (without wasting all the missiles) how to use this high-tech piece of kit effectively?

            And further, if the Ukrainians or even the Russians saw that the rebels, somehow, had setup a KUPOL site and thought it was effective, they would not send a single aircraft anywhere near the thing (BUK pretty much a 100% kill probability against fighters) but would move some howitzers or GRAD rockets within range and smash the thing with artillery (or maybe a lone KA50 at treetop level) within hours of it powering up…unless they WANTED the rebels to have it.

        • srmmedia

          even if the mh17 was shot down by BUK it was shot down by Ukrainian BUK , did you notice that Ukraine had 2 missile systems in the area and in range to shoot it down days up to the incident? Yeah you see the Russians released actual real verifiable satellite evidence , The USA releases illustrations and claims.

      • cia

        f16 & up

    • Vincent Dow

      HoustonReal, you strike me as highly squared-away in your knowledge of military aviation. Your well-worded comment gave me pause after encountering the *unofficial* German report. I knew nothing about the SU25, but the photos I’ve seen confirm your description of a ground-attack aircraft – of a similar breeding as an A1-E skyraider.
      That said, I will remain highly skeptical of the NATO/Western narrative – just on account of what they did to Libya in 2010 – the flimsiness of their Cassus Belli, and how they left that country. The NATO/Western narrative sinks even lower when we witness two years of murderous insurrection in Syria, with a steady flow of foreign Islamist fighters who receive funding from secretive sources in the persian Gulf monarchies. And this funding manages to get through despite the global reach of the *Patriot Act* and its strict prohibition of funding terrorism.
      You are certainly not “an incredibly stupid idiot.” I appreciate your well-thought comment.

      • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

        Vincent, Here are some more things to consider.

        I’m no expert on missiles, but I do know a few things about them. The main point is that they use shrapnel to hit their target vs an actual missile hit to increase the likelyhood of damaging/destroying the target. The shrapnel design of choice is steel balls that are roughly the 3/8 inch or 10 mm size for aerodynamics (they’re traveling at 2000+ MPH) and ability to punch through aircraft components.

        Most anti-aircraft missiles detonate some 50-100 feet away from the target to ensure a wide field of shrapnel and thus something will hit the target.

        If MH17 was shot down by a jet that was following it, the damages would be to the rear of the jet, not in the cockpit area & other frontal areas.

        If it was shot down with an infra red missile, the target would have been one of the engines with damage focused on the engine and wing area.

        There is a photo that shows extensive shrapnel damage to a piece of the skin that’s below the pilot’s window with additional shrapnel damage to the left wing tip. That damage is way more than any aircraft mounted missile can carry. For example the R-27/AA-10 has infra red and/or radar guidance. But, it only weighs 540 pounds total with the warhead weighing 86 pounds vs the BUK’s 190 pound warhead.

        • Robert Haschberg

          Missiles actually use continious rod warheads within an external shrapnel-producing prefragmented case. Pure shrapnel shells/warheads are world war 2 technology, they produce lots of damaged aircraft but relatively few shootdowns. Continious rod warheads cut the aircraft apart and greatly improve the kill ratio, they have been around since the 50’s.

          • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

            The only info I’ve seen say the BUK missiles use frag warheads. Are you saying those are the continuous rod warhead?

        • EAGLES

          You are one desperate, determined shill.

    • cia

      study technical data of su 25. its 10000m

      • Ales Ogrinc

        you have no idea how the plane work, you think that su 25 would actually be able to get ahead of a plane that runs double of speed his operation speed in 10000m?

        Just so you know, if even su 25 would manage to 10k, it would take him hours to do it, higher it goes, slowe it would become, the plane would probably have its 30% of his topspeed and even thinking how it would get infront of 900kmh passanger plane than even maneuver to shot at it…

    • Someone

      Wrong.
      The absolute Max service ceiling isnt the same as the normal top servicing ceiling.
      It is defined for service ceiling up to 7000 meters, but max ceiling is set at aprox 10.500.
      And can proberly go a litle over that also. (Most planes can go 30-100% over described ceilings).

      But they cant hold it there over time. They can just get up there, and then not lobg after have to decline. And often use oxygen-masks.
      Its a normal trick used in most big wars. Germans used it often in their surprise attacks in ww2.

    • Dzho ALehandr Azoeski nadze n

      aam sam or else (even cruise mrl etc) can flight at >5-10km altitude, (like balistic can do qb altitude flight or cruises the skimming)

  • Christopher Brooks

    This article is the regular misdirection generated to mix the truth with lies right before your eyes so the majority populous who might come across the information have their interest extinguished when the false parts of the story are exposed. This serves to destroy the truth that is contained in the story. This is how the public are steered away from important factual information. The populous are mostly not educated regarding psychological warfare and it’s regular patterns and strategies. The claims about the passengers having been killed before the flight began was another trap for the stupid who do not think for themselves. A very large proportion of the alternative media are mixing 90% truth with 10% nutty so the truth always remains hidden right before the worlds view. The truth in this article is that all the evidence does suggest the BUK story is a clever misdirection but the rest is invention and speculation designed to poison the truth. This article is designed to make fools of those who pass it on as credible.
    Never forget the financial resources of the money printer are limitless.

    • Lime Lite

      Please let me know to which evidence you refer. The USA STILL hasn’t released any “proof” and the Kiev fascists have removed the air-traffic controller voice recordings, which they’re refusing to release. Have you even asked yourself, if they’re so sure it was the Russians or rebels, why they just don’t release the recordings immediately, so the entire world can hear what happened? Have you noticed the USA aren’t jumping up and down for the release of the recordings?? Now, go ask yourself why, without asking mommy or daddy to think for you.

      • Christopher Brooks

        I don’t think it is the rebels or the Russians. I agree we need all the forensic evidence uncovered to be able to hold the guilty to account.
        It is unlikely an honest investigation will be conducted. The German evidence has all the fingerprints of mischief.
        I will confess having read some of John Ward’s background analysis the mischief might be different to that I first imagined.

        • sleat

          I have been wondering why Russia has not been calling far more strongly for key evidence like the ATC logs to be released. You’d sort of expect the US to act like the records didn’t exist, if they knew more than they were telling, but Russia?

          Also, the Russian radar traces, even the fragments that have been publicly presented, are pretty cut and dried. By looking at altitudes and airspeeds, and origins of radar tracks, it can fairly simply be ascertained exactly what number and type of aircraft were airborne in the area at that time. We can’t assume that Russia doesn’t watch Ukraine as carefully as possible these days.

          Russia and the US both have very advanced Non-Cooperative-Target-Recognition equipment, and it can work at quite long ranges, and only a fool wouldn’t put it to use having it so close to an active war zone, even if only for training and research.

          • xzuma

            I think you are only seeing the tip of the aisberg. Noticed CNN’s doubt of supposedly “good guys”, launching the ballistic missiles this morning? I hear the missiles were targeting the crash site.

        • ????? ???????

          “Rebels” need to be defended from extermination of Ukrainian nazi government, they are disarmed and bombarded every day… The photo is from Facebook. The foto shows the Nazi face of the EU that thinks only to play with the sanctions aganst Russia and do not anything against Ukrianina Nazis.

          • Dave the neutral

            What has this photo got to do with MH17, there is no way that the lady shown could have held on to her child as they fell from the sky so the picture is irrelevant to the source subject.

      • aubreyfarmer

        Pilots pleading to not be shot down and hearing their screams as the bullets pierce the cockpit are not conducive to the Zionist lies being swallowed hook, line and sinker by a gullible public.

        • Dave the neutral

          Do you earn a living by writing thrillers or by receiving money from the KGB by writing this rubbish, you trolls make me laugh very much.

      • Dave the neutral

        The initial report on MH17 is now out, it shows the 2 black boxes were not interfered with and the report states that ATC in Ukraine was in touch with MH17 about 2 minutes before it disintegrated in mid air. So even if Kiev has destroyed their recordings relating to the flight there are still those from the black boxes available.

    • http://whiteapple.ninja/ White Apple

      #MH17 like I’ve been saying all along..

      1) An open letter to Robert Parry & Tom Engelhardt & the Families of Flight #MH17 http://whiteapple.ninja/
      2) MH17 Regarding the Shelling of the Donetsk Train Station 7/21
      http://whiteapple.ninja/index.php/8-technological-progress-and-moral-evolution/5-kiev-conflicts-itself
      3) How to Seduce A Bear while Running Down the Mountain
      http://whiteapple.ninja/index.php/8-technological-progress-and-moral-evolution/4-a-perspective-on-cold-war-disarmament

    • http://stock-index-options-alert.blogspot.com/ Tom Chechatka

      The financial resources of the money printer are NOT limitless. In fact this should be obvious. Never in the Federal Reserve’s history has its balance sheet expanded to the degree it has these past five years. Being a lender of last resort and remaining extraordinarily active as such these past five years, one simply must conclude the U.S. banking system in fact is hopelessly insolvent. Indeed, the Federal Reserve’s extraordinary activism these past five years rather vividly reveals the U.S. banking system in truth is on its last legs. Were it not, then why would desperately trapped lenders of last resort (let’s include the U.S. Treasury here, too, because its role in sustaining the illusion of the banking system’s solvency is in fact the deciding one) throw everything but the kitchen sink at a banking system whose “assets” obviously have less intrinsic value than the truckloads of discarded wares filling a municipal garbage dump. Again, the Fed’s extraordinary activism proves this.

      But wait, you say, what about the recovery of asset values as a result of the Fed’s extraordinary activism? Well, we might argue various technical matters influencing this, yet we might better recall the sequence of events leading to the destruction of Bear Stearns followed by Lehman Brothers six months afterward, and begin this trip down memory lane in, say, February 2007 when two of Bear’s sub-prime mortgage funds blew up. Although at the time the aggressive “money printer” was Wall Street (through its securitizations and structured finance regimes) and not the Federal Reserve, eight full months of rising markets went into the books before cracks further exposing the U.S. banking system’s utter insolvency in February 2007 were more widely recognized, and not for another twelve months did the dam break wide open subsequent to first recognition in October 2007. Over that twelve month interim we saw Bear Stearns, whose shares were trading in the $70-$80 range during the first half of March 2008, trade down to $2 within a mere matter days. Bang! From tireless efforts sustaining the illusion of its solvency to complete disillusionment, all in the bat of an eye. More or less the same thing happened with Lehman Brothers. The “limitless” money printers won’t let ‘em go went the thinking. Bang! Buh-bye Bear. Buh-bye Lehman.

      I’m sorry, but the “money printer” does NOT possess limitless financial resources. Inasmuch as mankind is subject to “natural law,” so too is finance. On this note we might agree wealth CAN be created out of thin air. It is, indeed, possible to create “something” from “nothing.” The manifestation of this possibility, however, will always result in a marked increase in the productive powers of labor–always. Indeed, this, and this alone, is the ultimate “backing” determining a banking system’s solvency. Make people wealthier in truth (by making their labor more productive) and not only can they pay their debts, but they can increase their savings and, as well, afford to go even deeper into debt (if, and only if, the opportunity to further increase their productive powers should arise, which opportunity, itself, likely will be leveraging previous increase realized). Yet what have we seen most vividly since 2008? Has ANY of the supposedly “limitless” largesse of the money printer gone toward financing schemes offering to increase the productive powers of labor? The utter destruction of labor imposed upon the so-called “PIIGS” of the EMU were the London School’s answer! Quite the opposite to what ultimately is needed to sustain a banking system’s solvency!

      The “limitless” money printers won’t let the trans-Atlantic banking system crater, goes the thinking today. However, just like Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers in 2008, we’re just waiting for the BANG! The fact of the matter is this end cannot be stopped. Not as long as the London School continues to remain Wall Street’s master. Which leads this thought to certain blatant deceptions of the past year, among which MH017 is the latest. Is it in the average American’s interest to be increasing odds of a nuclear confrontation with Russia? Last year’s Ghouta (Syria) chemical weapons fraud couldn’t push the envelope promoting this very same end–nuclear confrontation with Russia–so what does a US State Department indistinguishable from the London Foreign Office do next? It elevates fascists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, right on the doorstep of Russia! Then worked by a decrepit, anti-American oligarchy propping up such mental midgets as Secretary of State John Kerry are media assets indistinguishable from the BBC, making every effort to vilify a Russia whose London School adherents are increasingly being marginalized under Putin. Obviously, the thinking is there are no shortage of suckers who will swallow the bait. Truth is most Americans wouldn’t know their REAL enemy from an enema. Little wonder given a US media that, through and through, is indistinguishable from the BBC. Little wonder, too, given the manner in which institutions of government have been reduced in their effectiveness to the level of feckless European parliaments.

      The enemy is not Russia. It’s London. Always was and always will be. Anyone arguing differently is a dupe, at the very least, and quite possibly something far worse.

      Per MH017, of no minor consequence was Putin’s leadership behind mid-July’s creation of a BRICS Development Bank challenging the hegemony of a rotten IMF system whose ideological framework is LSE through and through. Seeing what these pricks imposed on the so-called “PIIGS” of the EMU is it any wonder fascists and neo-Nazis needed to be elevated in Ukraine, this that the vile IMF’s LSE policy of rape and pillage be rammed down Ukraine’s throat?

      Per MH017 being the second Malaysian Air flight this year targeted for destruction, Malaysia’s 1997 imposition of capital controls and currency exchange controls in response to economic attacks coming from the London-New York Axis of Fraud might best be recalled here. This is how tyrants who smile behind veils of unfettered free market capitalism pay back victims who resist.

      Tying a little bow on this wordy package I will conclude by saying all things are not what they seem. This applies to money printers whose resources are believed “limitless,” as well as to who are the REAL enemies to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Peace out. (And speak of out, Kerry must go…)

      • Christopher Brooks

        I wasn’t suggesting printing money was going to end well. I was making the point the money printer doesn’t have a financing limitation
        and therefor ultimately controls all things that rely on money until the printing press is confiscated. The power of the printing press allows
        the money printer to effectively create the reality for most of mankind who have no clue about the magic of money from thin air.

        • http://stock-index-options-alert.blogspot.com/ Tom Chechatka

          I argue the money printer does have a financing limitation, and this is true no matter the ends to which its finance is directed. Yet the issue goes deeper than this, and you touch upon it when you argue the money printer possesses power to effectively create reality. Ben Franklin and Alexander Hamilton both understood this very well, which is why power to create credit was delegated to Congress in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution. Being a formidable power, its application was intended to uplift every noble principle clearly enumerated in the Constitution’s Preamble (particularly per promoting the general Welfare).

          It is toward this ultimate benchmark of accountability (principles enumerated in the Constitution’s Preamble) we can argue whether the Federal Reserve is a constitutionally legitimate institution. As presently configured with self-imposed limitations fraudulently argued as bolstering the institution’s “independence,” I side with those who claim the Federal Reserve is an unconstitutional enterprise. I suspect we agree on this point. Rightly so, too, because we both see the Fed is aggressively legitimizing a Ponzi scheme whose consequence in fact denigrates every last humanist principle enumerated in the Constitution’s Preamble. There is not one single point listed there that has not been compromised with considerable assistance from the Federal Reserve as presently configured.

          On this point, too, just how Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke are not sharing a prison cell with Bernie Madoff (whose Ponzi scheme was child’s play in comparison) is a most perplexing phenomenon for those who would claim the United States embraces “the rule of law.” Truth is we are a lawless nation filled with citizens too busy trying to make ends meet to challenge criminals in leadership positions who otherwise are paraded as being “respectable.” Let’s not deceive ourselves either. This is a bi-partisan affair. Both major parties have been subverted by Wall Street interests serving in their capacity as junior partners to the City of London and its animator, the Bank of England. We probably agree this relationship must be dissolved. Yet we probably disagree on what institutional framework must necessarily replace this. Being a Hamiltonian, I recognize desirable power that could be availed through a national credit system directing finance to ends serving to uplift the productive powers of labor. I understand how Anglophiles propping up Andrew Jackson subverted this power, and that this power has not yet been recovered even to this day, all on account of outright lies and deceptions that are kept alive by enterprises acting to destroy the means by which the U.S. constitutional republic could flourish and fully manifest its unique position among all nations as a temple of liberty and a beacon of hope.

          • Christopher Brooks

            Tom, I think a persons credit belongs to them and we should strive to have a credit system that serves the individuals freedom.
            I would accept that in community most individuals are prepared to surrender a portion of their power/credit to their government
            with conditions like accountability and sanction. The positive increment of association is a real thing. When it all comes down to it
            where lies power goes the dividends of humanity. Power, first and foremost, relies on knowledge and consciousness of reality and
            genuine truth. I cringe at any labels that fence in thinking and options for our progress. We all fall for the conflict above building
            upon the principles we have in common. Some ideologies are designed for deception and control and must be identified as such
            unless you want to be made a fool and live with never ending failed results from effort.

  • Rogoraeck

    Don’t confuse me with facts! My mind is made up!
    Kerry the Kup & Obomba!

  • Dmitriy Travkin

    version

    • Antonovs

      Seems very plausible.

      • abbadabbadoo

        So does an explosion of the jet engine, the target of the SAM, and that shrapnelling the shite out of both cockpit and wing..

  • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

    Why is this article showing an SU-27 vs the SU-25 that the Russian media said was following MH17? The SU-27 is an air to air fighter jet. But, the SU-25 is a close air support jet with a service ceiling of 23,000 ft. Thus this puts a major hole in what the Russian media has been proclaiming.

    • Gary Sellars

      An attack aircraft with a 30mm cannon is capable of hitting a slow moving large target like a jet airliner at ~3000m higher altitude as its effective range is probably around 4000m but it would be a tough shot to make. More likely is that the Su-25 could have used AAMs to bring down MH17, as the Su-25 can carry short-range IR-guided AAMs on its outer wing pylons (like AA-8 “Aphids”).

      Not saying it did, but it is certainly possible.

  • Slinky

    Does not matter to me who shot MH17 down. A civilian passenger aircraft was routed through a war zone where aircraft had already been downed. That makes Kiev guilty.

    • Slinky1

      If you want to try look smart think again. Its air control who can also close air ways off and didn’t do. Or the pilots self can choice a route .

      • Gerry Long

        The route is planned prior to the flight by the airline when their flight plan is submitted. The pilot has no right to deviate from this course unless encountering bad weather….so where does that put the blame?
        The worrying thing for air travelers now is that there seems to be no sense of responsibility for safety, since only a few airlines chose to deviate from this route. Something needs to be done about this pretty damn quick! And since most airlines are apparently not prepared to consider passenger safety above financial gain, it needs to be an international body with legal backing!

        • Vann Tedd

          COuntries have the ultimate world of where Airliners can safely travel over its airspace. It was kiev duty to give a safe path for the malasyan plane.. 10 times before that same plane flew over ukraine avoiding the warzone.. but this time it was directly guided to the middle of the war zone.
          Kiev had the 100% responsability to warn the pilots of an airliners ,over the dangerous place.. they flying ,because they were losing many military Planes over there too. Kiev simply wanted to frame the Rebels ,by shooting down a civilian plane and get world support for its illegal war. Rebels had nothing to win shooting down a civilian plane on top that BUK defenses require professionals that the Rebels don’t have.,. The missiles have to be guided by Radio using Radars.. is very complex stuff . They do not chase automatically .. they are radio guided and not by eye sight or any camera but by Radars.

          • Gerry Long

            I would try writing about something you understand, or if you don’t at least google it and read up about it first!

          • Slinky

            Right back at you Gerry. I am amazed at how far from reality some people will go to to avoid pinning this disaster on those responsible. Yea you Gerry, another hypocrite who labels anybody who will not drink the western supplied kool-aid as a terrorist. Does the fact that some people find abjectly stupid propaganda shoved down their throats by corrupt parasites distasteful bother you that much?

    • David Murphy

      Kiev did not make that decision, the airline did.

      • Slinky

        Nobody fly’s a commercial airliner anywhere in any country on this planet without government approval. Every flight is counted and controlled for tax purposes, national security and safety. You file a flight plan it’s OKed off you go…no plan no go. Ukraine claims the airspace, that makes Kiev guilty.

      • Beowulf73

        What? You have some magic radio set that picked up the transmission from the aircraft to ATC? Damn, where do I get one of those? What is your source of information? Or did the Ukrainian SS tell you and pinky swore it was the truth?

      • jeff davis

        Hogwash!

        Air Traffic Control controls air traffic. (Well, duh.) When they say go left, go right, go up, go down, the flight crew complies.

        So the question becomes, “What motivates you, David Murphy, to say something that any knowledgeable person — that even you — knows to be untrue?”. Do you need to win the argument that much?

  • JMO

    FALSE FLAG in order to start WW3. Plainly obvious the bankers executed this falsity. The world economy is crashing and they need a scapegoat in order to avoid blame. We have entered the end game phase folks, prepare yourselves and your families.

    • David Murphy

      I have told you before – don’t stop taking the tablets or the men in white suits will come for you.

  • http://whiteapple.ninja/ White Apple

    #MH17 like I’ve been saying all along..

    1) An open letter to Robert Parry & Tom Engelhardt & the Families of Flight #MH17 http://whiteapple.ninja/
    2) MH17 Regarding the Shelling of the Donetsk Train Station 7/21 http://whiteapple.ninja/index.php/8-technological-progress-and-moral-evolution/5-kiev-conflicts-itself
    3) How to Seduce A Bear while Running Down the Mountain http://whiteapple.ninja/index.php/8-technological-progress-and-moral-evolution/4-a-perspective-on-cold-war-disarmament

  • Arizona

    AN airplane full of dead people,shot down right at the exact right time,BY WHO? the sneaky puppets of america ,WHO ELSE …………………..

  • http://www.Attilashrugs.wordpress.com/ Attilashrugs

    And the radar image of the SAM? A false echo?

  • Birdie999

    The testimony came from Colonel Bernd Biedermann who led units in the duty officer system in East Germany. East Germany was a Warsaw Pact Member and satellite of Russia throughout the cold war. So this guy was from behind the curtain and was indoctrinated by the USSR during the cold warperiod . Anyone who served in such a capacity ( a senior commanding officer ) would have been heavily indoctrinated in Soviet propaganda and thinking. Also his loyalty would have been watched and evaluated closely by the Soviet overlords. If war had broken out, he would have commanded units against NATO under orders emanating from the Kremlin. So we have established his loyalties that existed throughout his military career. How does that make him an unbiased and credible witness against the west and Ukraine now?

    • http://whiteapple.ninja/ White Apple

      you have a link to substantiate that McCarthyistic tone?

    • xzuma

      Wake up, the die-hard. Russia is a capitalist country born out of protest against USSR. If anything, your drivel would suggest Colonel Biedermann’s anti-Russian stance.

  • 2015

    Just a layman’s opinion here, but the “holes” in the fuselage around the cockpit appear to be of varying sizes. This appears to a layman to indicate shrapnel of some sort. But I cannot say for certain, because I do not know if Bullets may also be known to produce holes of various sizes.

    Just a thought.

  • 2015

    Also, it has been established as fact that the 777 had descended from 33,000 ft.

    I think that is a piece of the puzzle that might help here.

    • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

      What is your source? Descending from altitude makes no sense.

  • Robert Govan

    This MH17 is a HOAX. Just like the missing plane hoax. Here is your proof…..Google this…..Wellaware1…….You are welcome.

  • xzuma

    Well, one thing: at 11 000 meters it is pretty hard to ignite even gasoline — lack of oxygen.

    • Ales Ogrinc

      even if it would manage to ignite, the plane would have exploded wings as there is the fuel and all wing parts sofar are like clean from any burns.

    • Gary Sellars

      Jets don’t use gasoline…. they use Jet A1 which is highly refined (low water) kerosene.

  • Teslasspark

    First off go look how big a 30mm entry and exit hole is and second an SU-25 max operating ceiling is 10,000 feet BELOW a 777, so rounds would be entering from the bottom not the sides and consider a 777 max cruise speed is much faster than that of an SU-25, so how did this fighter catch up to and climb high and fast enough to attack the plane? On the other hand 2 surface to air missiles exploding on opposite sides of the 777 could produce the damage seen.

    • Mark_2674

      It was the Russian military that proposed they were SU-25. I would think they know the ceilings of their own aircraft, and if it wasn’t remotely in the range of the 777 why did they even propose it.

  • Poetng

    That SU militair plane can fly max 7 km height, so instead of selling Kremlin back up information, then please note the readers your salary on that, then just selling bull sh4t

  • Ales Ogrinc

    LOL, interesting that such consumptions allways come from some book writers. Allways same thing and completly off from any reality…

    Peter Haisenko how are books sales lately?

  • Gias

    the rockets launched from the ground do not hit the plain itself either. but when close enough explode sending a shower of small bits of metal to the plane, and this way the plane gets penetrated in many places as well.
    Just like the pictures show. Attack from another plain would always be done from behind. not from the front because the planes would be traveling way to fast to have enough time to aim properly. So takes this stupid story down, it does not make any sense.

    • Ales Ogrinc

      some people will belive ALOT, especially if they can point a finger to the west or CIA…ive read so many storys now allready and best one is the replaced one with the missing malaysian and death people allready on the plane.

      • dahoit

        Sorry,I think it’s your faith in serial liars that is suspect.Where’s the proof by US?It would have been forthcoming right away if it fit the serial liars narrative.

  • Gerry Long

    In which case why would the rebels have tampered with evidence, even swapping aircraft parts, rather preserving it carefully so that the culprit could be recognised ? Or was it a Russian plane that shot MH17 down. The trouble is so many countries are now involved, many of them with a political agenda which will take presidence over facts. No regard for justice, or morality, or respect for the victims, will outweigh insatiable political ambition…….this is the world we are living in now.

    • Gary Sellars

      Rebels have NOT tampered with evidence – that is just another lie that the corporate MSM is dutifully spreading in service to their Ruling Elite masters and owners.

      The media are not interested in the truth, as they are now nothing more than privately-owned stenographers for government propaganda.

    • leslymill

      There is no indication that they did. Only western MSM is spewing baseless lies. We are on to them after Iraq. There intelligence is as credible as a toilet that needs flushing but nobody can get near it to do it.

      • Gerry Long

        So the film reports on the news stations showing aircraft parts being manipulated and the reports were all false?

  • heb macman

    First, aircraft cannon don’t fire “bullets”… They fire (exploding) “shells”… Second, such shells would NOT exit the fuselage as they would explode upon entering the fuselage…

    On the other side, the BUK (SA-11) missile will explode when near to its target and this explosion will direct a cone of red hot shrapnel into the target… Shrapnel, being non explosive, will go through the aircraft (enter on one side and exit on the other side) unless stopped by something substantive (e.g. instrumentation, a galley appliance etc)…

    Both can create fires onboard after hitting… The shell through its explosion and the shrapnel due to its heat as well as its residual energy…

    • Gary Sellars

      Radar proximity fuses do not rule out the missile impacting the target, as they can be configured to detonate when the radar detects the range to target is increasing, ie missile is passing the target. If the radar detects taht the distance to target is continuously diminishing, it will not detonate and will allow impact under these conditions.

    • leslymill

      those holes seemed perfectly round

  • Humanswillbefree

    This article proves what a joke all the Zionist propaganda American lies truly are. They had them hung and found guilty before the plane was even shot down. It was all to convenient for the America and the Jewmerica Zionist War agenda. Coup check, false flag operation shot down plane 295 people check, blame it on Russia to demonize them check….next up Iran once again……There seems to be a pattern didn’t they find clean ID or passports after 9/11 of the so called terrorists? The found British passports right Israeli’s assassinated someone in Yeman or Qatar….the false flag operations all were done by Mossad. The Zionist Jews have been behind all the current wars in the Middle East.

    • leslymill

      though I agree with your placement of blame on America…this constant instilling of blaming Jewish Zionists makes your whole post utter garbage. Most likely you just hate God Almighty. Don’t blame the Jewish people for Mossad who is as covert as the CIA. Both of these unintelligent agencies probably cause more destruction than good.

      • Humanswillbefree

        Just look at the people controlling everything and study their backgrounds….they are ALL Zionist dual citizen Jews whose loyalty is to Israel FIRST. Until you wake up to this fact, you will have cloud vision of what is actual going on. Unfortunately it blinds you to the deeds of these Neo-Cons Zionist Jew devils. They are creating all these wars that you see, they are creating the division between Muslims and Christians with their propaganda, that you will not be able to notice, if you don’t understand this.

  • Guy

    20mm Cannon Fire damage April 1943

    • http://WestValleyGreenHomes.com/ Eric Johnson

      Did you by chance notice this was the TAIL of the bomber that was hit? The tail gunner was probably already dead allowing the fighter to take his time and shoot it up. MH17 was doing 490 Knots which is 900 KPH. Hitting just the cockpit that many times at those speeds is impossible in two passes.

  • thetruthmaster1

    These facts have been coming out for a week now, as the Main Stream Media continues to lie to the World, Obama lies to the World, John Kerry Lies to the world. It is like they are all in some fantasy world with war on their brains. It is embarrassing our country is run by a pack of liars. And this also proves even when the facts are out and they keep lying,it just reflects who was behind it. Obama cries he can’t get inspectors in to look at the wreckage, and hundreds or reporters are walking all over the plane wreckage with no one in site. . The crash was a charred scene but poof some magical pile of passports come out clean as a whistle of the wreckage in perfect pristine condition without a single blemish on them., Heck Yeah, Conspiracy to commit Murder 290+ times. . .

  • LawrenceOshanek

    What a load of crap – there is and never was any ‘Spanish air controller’. That was debunked some time ago.

    KGB Nazi Putin must be paying very well to get so many useful idiots printing the same Russian fairy tales.

    • dahoit

      This is troll commenting,as Putin aint a Nazi,and his KGB heritage is dwarfed by GB the lessers CIA leadership,the most malevolent and useless org. in the world,next to your hero Mossad.

      • Ales Ogrinc

        lol, your right Putin aint Nazi, he is worse than that.

        • leslymill

          pathetic

          • Ales Ogrinc

            it must be for you not seeing it

          • esolesek

            Yoiu’re an idiot. go back to your sauna, and down some more moonshine

      • Santa In Canada

        Not only is Putin a Russian Nazi (as was his father during WW II), he is of Finnish extraction, the current Russian mafia don and a compensating closet homosexual child molester.

        As to the Israelis, Muslims, Russians and Americans – they are all the same to Lawrence and to me. :)

        • leslymill

          and this is a derail post to get off topic and demonize someone with rumors and family closet items. The west reeks of guilt and they have pulled out all the propaganda stunts….The Spanish guys is not debunked but everything about him was whisked away. Nothing else makes sense but that the plane seen on radar is involved.

          • Ales Ogrinc

            plane seen on radar? the radar images from russia? haha, sure

  • thetruth

    And yet again, another strong indication of heavy gun fire which brought the MH17 down an NO missile!

    OSZE observer Michael Bociurkiw is in Donezk and gave an interview the TV station CBC news in Canada.
    “There have been two or three fuselage that have been really pop? marked…. gun fire, very, very strong machine gunfire that has left these unique marks that we haven’t seen anywhere else. We were also asked for example if we have seen any samples of missile, no we haven’t is the answer. ….”

    Hear the interview yourself, go on their website and search for it. The important part starts at minute 6.00

    • Judy Whitehead

      Yes, it’s very interesting, although he does say that he’s not an expert and cannot say definitively that the holes were caused by gunfire.

  • peter

    I think the German experts have proved beyond doubt that the cockpit was hit by fighter plane bullets of 30mm caliber.

    • Ales Ogrinc

      expert have proved??? lol, i see only material for his new book

  • wraft

    The article is about Ukrainian jets machine gunning MH17, which agrees with ground civilian eyewitnesses. Strelkov also observed that the cockpit was a mass of blood, which agrees with the machine gunning theory.

    • Ales Ogrinc

      lol, you barelly see passenger jet on 10km and you think your going to see other smaller plane? And, wich eyewitnesses? Not a single one anywhere… Strelkov observed mass of blood? am yeah right…he mentioned to that people on plane were already death before and so on…

  • esolesek

    The US has been false-flagging like a maniac since 911, and it goes further back than that domestically. The 80s were a critical time in the development of the psychosis rampant in US government, or more like, the rampant arrogance of a nation that had so much power it didn’t imagine it could ever blow it all away. Well, now we’re seeing that decline. As a voting democrat, I knew Clinton was bad, but wow, Obama is a whole new level of screw-up, except that I think he’s just taking orders, and from whom is hard to say, because I’ve also heard from Iraq officers still in the Army that the Pentagon was not amused by Iraq, and not interested in a repeat. This may be our best chance, a military that says no to the children in DC and Wall St who seem to have not only lost their marbles, but the OZ curtain has fallen away, and they’re still sputtering.

    Our foreign policy is so idiotic, though, that my mouth is left wide open. Iraq made 10x more sense than this garbage with Ukraine and Russia. It is as stupid as Marie Harf at the state dept, and as youthfully mal-informed. I’m notifying my dem senators and congressman I’m staying home this fall if this garbage continues.

  • abbadabbadoo

    What a bunch of clowns. Look, we used to fly 4Fs back and forth along the border of East and West Germany loaded with tac nukes and frack pods waiting for the signal to go for it, and do you recall a single failure to maintain security? SAMS were regularly being outted and relocated as we Wild Weasled those folks in a cold war dance. These clowns are just itchin’ for some crazy shite to fly out their arses. so hold on to your pants!

  • jeff davis

    The Ukrainian authorities have confiscated the ATC tapes, and the British — Western shills — now have the cockpit voice recorder, so the exchanges between Kiev ATC and MH17 ***WOULD*** be under their control, excepting that those radio transmissions would also, one would think, have been picked up and recorded by the Russians. We shall see.

    Why did the Malaysians give the “Black boxes” to the Brits, knowing their bias in this matter? What security arrangements are in place to monitor the examination of those “boxes” to insure the data is preserved, faithfully and transparently presented, and not tampered with? Any such arrangements?

    And where is this Carlos guy, the Spanish Air Traffic Controller who was supposedly working in the Kiev ATC facility, tweeted famously re the incident, and has now gone missing? Is he dead? Was he imaginary? What’s his history?, Who and where is his family?

  • srmmedia

    I am inclined to believe that Ukraine shot down the plane too but as I discuss the radar images released by the Russians many people who disagree claim that the Russian Radar images of the Ukrainian fighter jet are false .. First they claim that an SU25 cannot reach that altitude , then they claim that in the radar images it looks like the alleged SU25 is hovering or at a stand still whilst the MH17 continues to move in one direction. Their claim is that an SU25 cannot reach the altitude and it cannot Hover … Can anyone with any other opinions help me clarify these issues?

    • Mr. Neutron

      Watch the news conference yourself (it’s on YouTube) – there are two speakers, the first guy seems more sloppy in his comments (or his translator is worse). In the second segment, which shows the actual radar data, the second guy only speaks of a “military aircraft” – it has no ID transponders like commercial aircraft, so they assume it’s military. They only see it once it climbs above 5 km (because of the distance from the Russian AirTrafficControl (ATC) radars on the border. They don’t even see it until AFTER the MH17 has suffered “abrupt speed loss’ – after any missile (AAM or SAM) has damaged it. It appears to “hover” at that scale (the screen is 100’s of km wide) but it could be circling in 5 km loops and you wouldn’t notice it. The Russian guy says it appears to be “circling the area of the shootdown for 4 minutes”.

      It would be nice if the Investigators analyzed the data the Russians turned over, to see if the ATC radars could distinguish – just by radar signature – an Su-25 from an Su-27. I bet they can’t.
      And the radar data didn’t show anything about the “military aircraft” flying at 10,000 m – only that they saw it AFTER it climbed above 5km altitude, which was AFTER the MH17 Boeing was hit.

  • Hakko

    Only problem in this Kremlin lies is that SU-25 ceiling is 7km and MH17 was flying more than 10km. Russians probably can’t think, but developed world knows that it’s impossible to hit flying plane from other flying plane with 30mm cannon in such a distance.

  • Dzho ALehandr Azoeski nadze n

    buk = unitary HE , not shrapnel frag
    -.-

    • Dzho ALehandr Azoeski nadze n

      plus, copies maded by prc ukr else, (blak market,arms dealer, arsenals weps of usa nato israel others)

    • Dzho ALehandr Azoeski nadze n

      and su25 can launch cruise, agm , aam, else ; >5-10km altitude achieved by many , aam and else